Uncommon Freedom

Rethinking Church: A Journey Back to Biblical Patterns / Uncommon Man 5 with Matt Andersen

• Kevin Tinter • Episode 106

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When we hear the word "church," most of us picture a building with pews facing a stage. But what if that image bears little resemblance to what Jesus and the apostles actually established?

Matt Anderson takes us on a journey back to the earliest Christian communities, revealing how the church was designed to function as a family rather than an institution. Drawing from over 20 years of ministry experience and deep study of the Book of Acts, Matt shows how the first believers gathered around meals in homes, creating intimate communities where discipleship, worship, and mission naturally flowed from their relationships.

The conversation challenges our modern assumptions about church structure and practice. We explore how the Lord's Supper was originally a full feast shared around a table, not just symbolic elements passed in tiny cups. We discover how early church gatherings were multi-generational, with older believers intentionally mentoring younger ones rather than segregating by age. And we examine how resources were shared generously to advance the gospel rather than maintaining expensive buildings and professional staff.

Perhaps most compelling is the reminder that Jesus said the world would recognize his followers not by their buildings, programs, or even their preaching, but by their love for one another. This profound truth suggests that our greatest evangelistic strategy isn't inviting people to services but inviting them into authentic, Christ-centered relationships.

This isn't about abandoning our current church experiences but about thoughtfully examining whether some of our traditions have drifted from biblical patterns. Matt's insights will inspire you to reimagine what church could be when built on the foundation of family relationships rather than institutional structures.

Subscribe now and discover what it might look like to recover the vibrant, intimate church community that turned the ancient world upside down. And stay tuned for Matt's upcoming podcast "Guarding the Good Deposit," exploring apostolic traditions from Christianity's first three centuries.

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Kevin:

All right friends, welcome back to the Uncommon Freedom Show. Today I am joined by a veteran friend of mine yes, I do occasionally keep some friends for more than one or two years Matt Anderson, who for over 20 years Matt has served in leadership in education, business, nonprofits and in the local church as a pastor, worship leader and church planter. He now works primarily with the Metro Equipping Coalition, mec in greater New York City, supporting church planters, training leaders and establishing churches as families patterned after the Book of Acts, which we're going to talk about today. I'm really excited. Matt currently partners with Build International's Global Apostolic Team and collaborates with the Chalmers Center, ccda and City Advance to advance citywide unity, economic empowerment and church-based leadership worldwide. Matt is a certified facilitator for the Six Types of Working Genius Model, which Bek and I are huge fans of.

Kevin:

Matt. That was cool to read and here's a really fun fact Matt once served as the front man for a little-known rock band called the Middleman. It's one of the most fun things he's ever done in his life and yours truly was part of that band and that was an absolute blast back in the 2004-2005 time frame Matt, right?

Matt:

Yeah, something like that. That was excellent.

Kevin:

Yeah, it was great. And he also loves basketball, riding his Harley and spending time with his family. His favorite scripture verse is Galatians 6, 9, and let us not grow weary while doing good, for in due season we shall reap if we do not lose heart. Matt, it's great to see you, brother.

Matt:

Yes, so good to be here on this. Thank you for the opportunity to just share a little bit about what God is teaching me.

Kevin:

Yeah, absolutely. And you know, as I started this series, I've been blessed to have some just incredible friends and incredible Christian brothers in my life for so long. And when I look back in my life, you know the season where Becca and I met you and your wife Jess, uh, was early 2002 when we showed up in Okinawa and then after a couple months, found Calvary Calvary Chapel, okinawa, and I think you and Jess were leading worship that like our first Sunday in that. Well, actually, yeah, that that old building, weren't you? Yeah, yeah.

Matt:

We were. I wasn't the, I wasn't the leader of that time. I think I was still pretty, uh, you know, wet behind the ears with some of that stuff, but it was, uh, yeah, we were involved from the get go um, you know, in some pretty cool ways. It was a lot of fun.

Kevin:

Yeah, so real quick, let's uh, let's talk about your family, so I mentioned your wife.

Matt:

Jess, you guys got married fairly young as well, right? Yeah, we've been married now. We got married in 2002, just before we moved to Japan. So we're on year 23 now, I guess. So, yeah, and we have three kids. They are just about to turn 15, 17, and 19. So they're moving from high school into college. We've got three teenagers in the house, which has been awesome.

Kevin:

Yeah, no, it's actually a very fun season. As long as you can survive the hormones and the mood swings and things like that, whether they're boys or girls, because they both deal with that stuff it's actually. It's a very, it's a super fun season in life because you're transitioning from you know having to do so much and parent and correct to it's you know there's a friendship element. I think it's you got to be careful to not become your child's best friend when they're a teenager, but there's a relating on a totally different level, so that's awesome.

Matt:

Yeah, it's been cool too. Awesome, yeah, it's been cool too. I'll just add to that saying like one of the fun things is seeing each of our kids starting to find their lane and getting their own interests and finding, like you know, just uh, just the the kinds of things that really uh, feed them and energize them and just walking them each through that and it's so different. You know this, we've got three kids and it's like you got to learn to parent three times from scratch, basically.

Kevin:

So it's crazy, yeah, cause you, you get your first and then you kind of figure out, okay, this worked, that didn't. And then you're like we're going to do the same thing with number two. And then you know uh, you know I'm thinking of who does number two work for, right From Austin Powers, because it's almost the same thing, it's like wait a minute like why aren't you responding the same way? It doesn't make any sense, so it is a fun season, yeah exactly.

Kevin:

So, in addition to parenting and raising kids, fill us in what else have you been up to for the last 20 years, because it's been almost that long since we left, actually it's been about that long since we left Okinawa.

Matt:

Yeah, yeah, it's been, uh, it's been a little bit of a whirlwind and you know, uh, just kind of the long story short. You know our time in Japan. Uh, you know about three of we were there for five years. I think you guys were three years there. Um, and it really was a formative time for us and we got very, very heavily involved in ministry life at our church there. I was, like you mentioned, leading worship there and really felt called to come back to New Jersey where I grew up. We moved back here in 2007 and our heart was to plant a church here in North Jersey and it's been a roller coaster ride. I spent some time working in the family business planting a church, initially in the suburbs, and then God eventually moved us into the heart of the inner city of Patterson, new Jersey.

Kevin:

That's where we visited you, right.

Matt:

That's right. Yep, that's right. Yep, you saw the Great Falls and all that kind of fun stuff. Yeah, yeah, that was awesome. And eventually I ended up leading a nonprofit a pretty significant nonprofit in the city of Patterson. I was involved there for about 10 years about seven as the executive director, leading a network of about 80 churches and organizations that we served all of those churches and organizations and really, along the way, just learning a lot. God has been just teaching us a ton of stuff, and about 18 months ago I stepped down from my nonprofit role and now I'm not necessarily just doing one thing but doing a lot of different things. I'm still working with some nonprofits, doing some of my own work, supporting my wife in some of her work. It's been an interesting season of transition for us along the way.

Kevin:

Awesome, awesome. Yeah, it's been fun staying in touch, probably talking about once a year, yeah, and I've seen you, I think, twice or so since, since we left Okinawa. But you know it's good friends, you stay connected and you know you can connect once a year and you still know that you've got each other's back and when you just pick up where you left off.

Matt:

Yeah, it really is.

Kevin:

It really is. It's awesome. So what are some of the things that you've been learning along the way? I mean, obviously you started in Christian education in Okinawa Christian School and the students there were they mostly the children of military families or who was the typical student at OC, at Okinawa Christian school?

Matt:

Yeah, it was a mix. So it was an American style Christian school, all English instruction and everything was an international school. But actually a lot of the kids were kids that were half American, half Okinawan. So generally they would have an American dad that was oftentimes a military, us military dad, and a Japanese or Okinawan mom. So it was a lot of mixed kids, but there was also some, you know, full Japanese kids, full American kids. Parents that you know chose to send their kids, you know, if they were stationed there in the military. So it was, it was a mix of which. That that's part of. What I loved is just, you know, getting to know all the different cultures and just yeah, that's. It was all beautiful stuff there.

Kevin:

So, just kind of going with the uncommon man theme, talk about some of the things that you observed. If you can reach back this far in your memory, yeah, you know two very different cultures, okinawan and American, very different. What were some of the things that you observed, especially of the Okinawan kids, the kids who had two Okinawan parents compared to the ones that maybe had just one Okinawan and one American, versus the ones that had two American, just one.

Matt:

Okinawan and one American versus the ones that had two American? Oh yeah, that's an interesting question. Well, you know, I'm sure you remember this from your time there as well, but very, very much baked into Okinawan and Japanese culture is it's a high respect culture, right and some of that was also baked into the military culture, which you know, having been in the Marines there. So that was actually something that was interesting for me, coming from the Northeast of the United States, and I had students and like everybody called my wife and I ma'am and sir and there was just that kind of different level of respect that was kind of in the culture and the politeness and even just when you go into a restaurant or a store and the way the service was in the Japanese culture is a very service oriented community and that's actually one of the things that we kind of missed, miss coming back to the States, where you go into a store or restaurant and it's like hey, can we actually find somebody to help us here?

Kevin:

Absolutely. Yeah, One of the profound memories that Beck and I have, uh, was where we don't. I don't remember the last time I went to McDonald's, but there was a McDonald's restaurant right around the corner from our house and it we'd heard like you got to go to McDonald's and normally that's not what anyone ever says and sure enough, we checked it out and the, the, the employees, were perfectly, you know, wearing a perfectly pressed uniform. I mean, they just looked, they looked like you imagined they did. Back, when, you know, Ray Kroc started the company and the food presentation was just like it is in the photos and it was just, it was kind of a microcosm of just how disciplined they are, how much respect they have and it's definitely something that is missing from American culture.

Kevin:

One of the other things that Becca was kind of surprised about, cause she taught on the, the base schools, and the assumption that we both made was oh, you're dealing with, you're dealing with military families that typically, you know, have know, have respect, sir ma'am, that type of stuff, and and she was shocked at the lack of respect, uh, just like how undisciplined that a lot of the kids were. It was just an interesting I don't know. I guess we had a, an assumption, uh, that would be super respectful and a lot less discipline problems. And I guess people are people and you know, I guess the bottom line is, if parents don't teach their kids good manners and the same things that they're applying at work, they're not going to, naturally, do it.

Matt:

So, yeah, I and actually I got to experience that because for two years we were at the Christian school and then for three years I've I also taught on base um at the Christian school and then for three years I also taught on base at the Department of Defense schools, so at a middle school there. So that was yeah, I can definitely identify with that it was a little bit of culture shock going back and forth between those different worlds. So yeah.

Kevin:

So one of the things, one of the reasons I was really excited to have you on this podcast is I will call it kind of an uncommon church concept. And before we get too deep into it, I just want to I'll throw a disclaimer out. There is that you know we're not, we're not trying to bash any church. We're not trying to bash the way that America traditionally does church. I think there's reasons that it's evolved into what it is. But at the same time, you've been doing learning a lot and just kind of reflecting. At the same time, I've been kind of just reflecting on does the way that we do things make sense?

Kevin:

And once again, beck and I, we attend a church locally. We love it, we're grateful for it, the pastors are amazing, we love the ministry that they're doing. But I think it's always good to kind of evaluate and say is what we're doing the way things were meant to be and is it the best way to do things? And maybe are we holding onto some traditions that no longer serve us and so we're going to go down that road? And I just want to throw that disclaimer out there. We're not trying to bash any church or anything like that. But if you currently attend church, really just kind of want to encourage you to number one, go back to scripture. And number two, just keep an open mind, say hmm, is there something?

Kevin:

that maybe I'm missing, or just keep an open mind is ultimately what we're going to talk about. So you have been been spending can I?

Matt:

can I add to that real quick, just to say one of the things I because, when you, when you try to challenge people's thinking on you know biblical ideas and church traditions and all of that kind of stuff sometimes people interpret it as like we're bashing and I'm with you, like I're not. I don't wanna come across that way. Also, though, the cool thing about it, kevin, is God has a way, even in our imperfect efforts at church, of redeeming those things and working despite them. Even if it's not 100% aligned with his plan or his design, he still redeems it and he still works. So that's I always come back to that Like God's at work, no matter what denomination you're in, no matter if you're following the scriptures and you're just, you love the Lord, right the first commandment that he somehow has a way of redeeming our broken efforts.

Kevin:

So that's Amen. I love that. I've actually learned a lot from some people that I've later learned are really horrible people and it's like, hey, you know what God can use good people and he can use bad people and he can use things either way. Redemption that's the business he's in, so Absolutely yes. So bottom line is you've been learning and thinking about the role of the church, and especially modern Western church systems, what we're, in America, certainly accustomed to. What are some of the key elements that might need to be modeled more closely after the patterns of Acts and the New Testament?

Matt:

Yeah, that's a really good question. The big answer to it is, or the high level answer, would be that we really like the question you stated. We really have to lean into the patterns of the New Testament as our guide, and specifically Acts and the epistles. I actually, you know the intention of the authors there was that these were patterns that we are all called to follow and along the way and this is, you know, one of the key things that was very, very helpful for me in thinking about the role of the church, because I believe that the church is God's intended, it's his plan, right, it's ultimately and I ran a nonprofit for 10 years and I said all the time, the Western 501c3 nonprofit is not God's plan for bringing redemption to the world, it's the church, and in 500 years, if the Lord should tarry that, the church will still be around, but nonprofits may not even exist anymore. But the plan is for his church.

Matt:

But what we've done a lot of times in our world is we have disintegrated the church where, when you read the patterns of the New Testament, it's an integrated plan. So what do I mean by that? I mean we take something like missions and we say, well, that's something that the professionals do out in the mission field and they're a lifelong ministry and that's their job and their role. And then we take something like evangelism and we outsource that to some specially gifted speakers, maybe somebody that's more extroverted, or something like training leaders, and we outsource that to a seminary.

Matt:

When you look at the patterns of the New Testament, all of those things were integrated together into the life of the church family and it was something that was truly church-based. It was all happening within the context of churches as families. So that's kind of a higher level answer to the question there. But it's this idea that we have fragmented everything from the daily life of the church and when all of those things were part of their daily life because they were operating as family. That's really what the church you know was intended to be.

Kevin:

So why don't you paint a picture for me, and especially for those who might not have a good understanding of acts and the epistles? Uh yeah, what did church look like 2000 years ago? Um?

Matt:

Yeah, that's a really good question. Well, I think one of the key elements is, like I mentioned, the church was a family, and I believe that's a big part of God's design and intention for the church is that we're intended the base social unit or the operating unit for the church is a family, and so in a family you have fathers and mothers and aunts and uncles and cousins and brothers and sisters and all of those kinds of things, and in a lot of ways, the church has become institutionalized, where it's operating on a corporate structure instead of a family structure, of a family structure. So, if a church is intended to be a family and there's a lot of texts that Paul talks about you know these household texts they're called that Paul writes about really trying to shore up this idea of the church being a family, of families right Coming together, of families right Coming together. Well, you think about it. Then, how do families meet? What do families do?

Matt:

And so part of what you know we've been practicing in my church family and we're part of a whole network of churches that meet this way is we meet in homes and we meet around a meal, around a table, and then we have more dialogue, discussion rather than what you might call traditional preaching along the way, because that's part of what families do and part of the idea around it as well is I was just speaking to some folks about this this past couple weeks 59 times in the New Testament there's commands on how we one another and a big part of our walking out of our Christian life is one anothering, and I had somebody comment to me. They said, yeah, but our systems today aren't really set up for one anothering. It's set up for a passive experience and we don't necessarily have a system that is designed and intended for folks to one another. Well, so what happens around the dinner table? And we actually celebrate the Lord's supper around a dinner table and I think this is a lot of what to answer your question.

Matt:

2,000 years ago churches were doing. They were sharing a meal together as a family and they had leaders that were leading them through how to be mature followers of Jesus, like that's ultimately the goal in a family is to, like we talk about with our teenagers. We want them to grow and mature and to be functioning adults, and it's the same is true in church families. We want people to actually grow up in their faith. That's part of the goal.

Kevin:

Yeah. So let's just talk about the Lord's supper, which most people probably know as communion. So what Jesus did with his disciples, that he gave us the instruction to duplicate, is to participate in the Lord's Supper. And if you take communion at pretty much any church, and certainly in America I, you know, I haven't been to a whole lot outside the ones I've been to in other countries are fairly Americanized, either, you know, in okinawa or, um, yeah, and I'm trying to think, gosh, if I've been to any churches anywhere else, I don't know that I have, but I imagine they're heavily influenced by america anyways. But you know, if you look at what we do for communion, like wait a minute, this is the lord's supper, like is this all he's given us? So like, yeah, dig into that a little bit more, like what was really intended. And the other thing is, if you think of Thanksgiving feast, right, the amount of communion, like literally, when we're talking communion, we mean, you know, connecting, right, we're talking about conversation.

Kevin:

The communion that happens when we take communion in a Western church is totally different. So talk about. What is that experience? What did Jesus intend for that experience to really be like?

Matt:

Yeah, yeah, that's a really good question and, like you mentioned, when he instituted that with his disciples, we can get some clues from there. Another really key place to look at that is in 1 Corinthians actually. So 1 Corinthians, chapter 11, verses 17, all the way through chapter 14, is really Paul outlining what the gathering of believers ought to look like, and that's that. That's that uh, uh. As I'm sure you're familiar with it. That at the beginning, or at 1117, he starts saying I've received from the Lord what I'm delivering to you, that on the, on the uh, uh, at the last supper, the Lord took the bread and he broke it and he said this is my body Right. But Paul is actually writing that because he says to the Corinthian church you're gathering for the Lord's supper, not for the good, but it's actually worse because you've got it all mixed up. And so he's actually correcting them and saying how you gather really matters. And what he says is when you come together for the meal and the word there is actually the word for feast. It was actually a feast. It wasn't a wafer and a shot glass, it was actually them coming around together for a feast as a family. And then he goes on to talk about well, what does that all look like?

Matt:

And chapter 12, he talks about spiritual gifts and how we use spiritual gifts. Chapter 13, he says the most important thing is that we have love for one another. Right, it's that famous love chapter that's not just intended to be read at weddings. He's actually saying this is the most excellent way when we come together to gather. And he goes on and addresses a bunch of other things in those chapters. But that's really what a lot of that was is coming together around a meal. And then, really, chapter 14, he talks about okay, now, when you also have this discussion time, this teaching time of really leaders, kind of facilitating not just a sermon that's one direction, but multi-directional conversation. The beauty of it is people actually can process what they're learning and you can have conversation about how to apply it to our lives, which is a really, really important element, right Of like, not just not just throwing ideas at people and hoping it sticks, but helping people think through what does this mean for me and my family and our lives today and how we live out our calling as Christians?

Kevin:

That's great. Do you see any differences in how the church interacted from an age standpoint? And let me be very clear I'm grateful for children's pastors and youth pastors and I know that a lot of kids. They have incredible experiences at youth camps and youth group and things like that.

Kevin:

One of the regrets that my wife and I have with some of our kids is we weren't as intentional about making sure they had a good community that a youth group can provide although I don't think it always does, but many times does. And I want to say first of all thank you to youth pastors because I think it's one of the most challenging and thankless and underrated jobs, at least in the Western American church. So I'm certainly not bashing it, but the flip side is we're very segregated. You know kids go off to their thing, the teenagers go off to their thing, and when you look at even how life was done in the old one room schoolhouse, like there's a lot of advantages to that and I imagine that church in 2000 years ago that Paul was talking about looked very different than it does today. So, like, how do you envision that and how do you see that possibly being more advantageous for us properly training up our kids?

Matt:

Yeah, that's a really good question. So one of the uncommon things about the church to use that key on that term, uncommon that was really distinctive about them though in the early church, was that it was multi-generational. Generational um, the roles and of men and women were very uh counter-cultural at that time um the uh diversity in the church, with different ethnicities coming together. That's why paul talks about, you know, there's neither jew, nor greek jew, nor greek slave, nor free like it was people from all different economic levels all coming and gathering together, which is really really unique. But along with that, it was multigenerational, right, and it was the idea, and I agree with you. Like, we're not bashing youth groups or anything like that. My kids have been involved in youth events and things. My daughter has been very involved in a local youth group by us.

Matt:

But there's a multi-generational element of the church and this is why Paul says to Titus in Titus, chapter two, and he gives instructions. He says older women ought to behave this way, but they ought to be investing in younger women, and he talks about older men and younger men and slaves and masters or we might think of that as employees and employers today, right, those kinds of things. But how we all relate to each other in this drastically diverse and unique context is actually a big part of our witness to the world as well. Right, how we love each other. That's why Jesus said they'll know you're Christians by your love for one another. And but part of our system today is we have fragmented a lot of those things where it's like, oh well, the kids just hang out over here with the kids and we have a a senior adults group and they just do their thing and we're missing out on that. One anothering multi-generationally. That is really, really important.

Kevin:

So yeah, it's so good, it's so good. And then like from a building standpoint. You know, when a typical person says church, what they mean is I go to this particular building at such and such location. What did the buildings look like? What did the church physically look like from a building standpoint 2,000 years ago?

Matt:

And what?

Kevin:

lessons can we take from that?

Matt:

Yeah, yeah, there's a really good book I would actually recommend along these lines as well. It's available on Amazon. It's by a guy named Robert Banks and it's called Going a narrative from the view of a Roman non-believer attending a first century church gathering. But essentially they were mostly in homes and you know. So some people have said well, are you part of a house church movement? Which there are a lot of house church movements happening. It wasn't strictly in homes, because sometimes they might have met in a storefront if somebody had a business or those kinds of things, but they tended to be smaller groups, more intimate, and they gathered around a meal and a conversation. That was a big part of how the first church gathered in that way, of how the first church gathered in that way. But yeah, again, it was that multi-ethnic, multi-generational type of gathering where they're all coming together and I'm forgetting if I'm even answering your question at all.

Matt:

I was talking about kind of like yeah, what the physical building looked like as as far as the building, yeah, and you talked about homes and businesses, so yeah, Go ahead.

Matt:

No, I was just going to say, yeah, that's, you know. Now we think of a church building as an auditorium, right, you know, it's with pews and rows, with everybody facing towards a stage and rows with everybody facing towards a stage. The unique thing back then it was more around a table, everybody facing each other and being able to interact together, which is, I think, a key element of it all and the interesting thing about this and I haven't actually done the math on this, but when you actually look at the amount of church dollars that are wrapped up in budgets around buildings and salaries instead, and they're not actually invested in the progress of the gospel as much, it's more an internal expense it's pretty striking, especially in America, right? And so there's I know of some churches that you know say well, we give 10% of our budget to missions or outreach or something like that. I also know of other churches that have no buildings. They have dozens, actually dozens, of churches meeting in homes or other places like that, and they give 90% of their budget towards outreach and missions and the progress of the gospel. So there's, that's a unique thing.

Matt:

When you talk about the building and what the building was like, I'll just say this last thing too. Peter talks about this specifically when he talks about how Jesus is. Each one of us is living stones that make up his church, and it's the idea that we are the temple that comes. We're building up that holy temple and Christ is the cornerstone of that temple, of the cornerstone of that building and and so. So it's this. It's kind of getting beyond just the four walls of things and thinking like no, actually we are that temple, we are his image bearers. His spirit resides in us and there's something holy about that. When we come together, it's. It's not that the building itself or the four walls are sacred or holy According to the New Testament, that Holy Spirit presence resides when we are there, when his people come together.

Kevin:

That's great. Um, one of the things that I've observed and I was listening to another podcast yesterday and they mentioned this but in the new Testament when, uh and I'm going to show my ignorance in scripture, I think it's typically Paul writing letters to the churches, right, and he says to the church in you know, gilbert, you know, so he names to the church in a specific city, and so the when I read that, I'm thinking okay, there's just a single church there, and obviously I don't know if it's because it was such a new movement that there just weren't that many people, so physically they could all fit into a home or a business. Did they grow to? You know, so did.

Kevin:

Did large buildings become a necessity because the church grew, or was the intent that, um, as you grew, you just broke off and started, you know, like, all right, we're. You know, this group is going to meet in Kevin's home, this group is going to meet in Matt's home. What do you think the intent was? And how did we go from meeting at homes and people's actual buildings, which is a much more efficient way of doing things from a financial standpoint? Because one of the things I'm fully aware of is that I would imagine that of the money gets you know, donated to a church, probably I would. I guess at least 50% just goes to operational stuff paying the bills, rent or you know property taxes, you know salaries, and so go ahead and answer that. And then I have another question kind of along the line of salaries for pastors.

Matt:

So yeah, yeah. So. So an example would be you know, Paul writes a letter to the church in Ephesus. Right, and I've been there, I've been to Ephesus.

Kevin:

It's unbelievable. Yeah, I have too.

Matt:

Yes, yeah, fantastic, I loved it. Yeah, but yeah, so it wasn't necessarily just one church in one location. So part of what Paul was doing was he was planting communities and as those communities grow up, they go and they plant more communities. So almost think of like a strawberry patch, right, where you have all these little pods that all have their roots, but they're all connected. And it's this idea that ultimately, what Paul was doing was he was planting networks of churches that were all connected together.

Matt:

So when he said, you know this letter to the church in Ephesus, there were multiple locations, churches, it actually says that the whole region was inundated with the news of the gospel. Right, so it was. There were churches all over the place that met separately but they were all connected together through apostolic leaders like Paul or Timothy or others that you know. So they circulated these letters around to all the different churches in the region. But primarily, the churches were identified by you know what city they were a part of. You know Paul and Barnabas were sent out of. You know the church in Antioch, you know to on on all of their, their missionary journeys. So, uh, those the short answer to your question is no, I don't believe it was just one church in one city. It was a network of churches or a family of families that was growing throughout an entire city or even a region.

Kevin:

So but because the church was considered the body of believers, you took all those micro churches and called them the church right, yes, absolutely yeah.

Kevin:

So my other question has to go along with the concept of, like you know, full-time ministry. Getting paid Are there, and I'm trying to remember who it was. Once again I'm going to show my ignorance of scripture, at least some of the details. I know there were collections taken up to allow people to be, I think, in full-time ministry. Was Paul one of those? But I also know, wasn't he also a tent maker? But are there early church examples of people who they stopped their career whatever it was to do ministry full-time?

Matt:

Yeah, yeah, that's a really good question and I think so it's a nuanced answer or a complex answer, because I think we see both of those things happening at times. Right, we see times where Paul writes and says he's very, very thankful to the church at Philippi for the gifts that they gave to help support him in his work, right, right, that's what I'm. But at the same time, at the same time, he writes to, uh, the church in Thessalonica, and says when I was among you, I worked, uh, and and that's the example that you ought to follow and he's talking about his tent making and how he went to provide for himself. So I think there's a little bit of both, of some of those things, and that's actually some of the transition I'm trying to figure out personally, to be honest with you, because there's been a handful of years where I was on a salary, right, and there were people that helped to support some of our work when I was church planting, obviously at the nonprofit, when we had supporters supporting the nonprofit and I was paid a salary. Now I'm in a place where I'm doing a little bit more tent making type work, but there may be people that come and support in unique ways along the way, which is wonderful.

Matt:

But you know, what we're trying to build into our lives is a lot of flexibility. Where we can, you know we can provide for the family but also have the flexibility and the freedom to step out when God calls us to minister somewhere, to be involved somewhere as well. So I think you can see both in the New Testament. Let me just mention one other thing too.

Matt:

When it comes to funding and budgets and all of those conversations today, there's a really unique thing that you also see in the New Testament, which is when there was famine in the church in Jerusalem. There's churches, a collection that is made amongst a whole network of churches that is going to support what God is doing in Jerusalem, because they see themselves as the body of Christ. And we also see this in the book of Acts, where it says people did things like sold property Barnabas sold his property right and they that people were selling their goods and bringing them to the apostles, not because the apostles were so important or so that they could have a salary, but so that the apostles could help to distribute these amongst, you know, for folks in need. So there's a lot of really unique things happening in the New Testaments when it comes to funding and provisions and all of that kind of stuff that is. There's a lot to think about there. I think that's that's very interesting.

Kevin:

Yeah, especially when you think about the millions I would guess it's probably more like billions in America that are spent on like huge staffs, like like I understand you know the pastor, he's full-time and he, you know he's preaching and he's, you know, teaching and mentoring and things like that. It's good. But you know the the advantage of a home church or someone owns a business that says, hey, I'm going to open it up to the church and on Sundays we're going to meet, you're using, you're leveraging something that's already there and so you don't have to pay a full-time custodian. And you know this and that and and this and that and this and that there's so many full-time positions that have to be paid. And then just the massive amount that gets spent on real estate and rent or mortgages and things like that.

Kevin:

You're like wait a minute. If we really thought of the worldwide church as the body of Christ, as our brothers and sisters, I think there's probably enough money in America to make sure that no brother sister worldwide goes hungry.

Matt:

Yeah.

Kevin:

But we're spending it on mortgages and salaries, and and once again, I know this is going to sound critical, but I'm just like, I'm thinking about this, like, and I'm just like okay, god, what do you intend? What's, what did you really want for us? Because it's so easy to drift over time? Yeah, what's, what did you really want for us, because it's so easy to drift over time? Um and uh. So I know to a lot of people maybe they're not interested.

Kevin:

I'm kind of geeking out over this because I'm just like yeah because I guess one of my core values is also efficiency, and so when I'm like man, is there a better way to do it? So one of I'll I'll, I'll take your pick on this. One of my other observations of certainly church today is that I don't think, like most people who claim to be a Christian in America, really feel equipped, nor have they ever truly witnessed to somebody, shared the gospel. The American way of witnessing is hey, come to church, and I'm going to say it's the pastor's job to share the gospel with people.

Matt:

Is that what was intended 2000 years ago? Right, yeah, that's, that's a really good question. So I'll, I'll, uh, uh. It's funny that you bring this up because the last two Sundays I preached a couple of sermons that ultimately led to this exact conversation. Amazing, led to this exact conversation, amazing, yeah, so two Sundays ago, the sermon that I preached the gist of it was and this was at a local church kind of near us that I preached there about four times in the last couple of months, just kind of filling in with pulpit supply and stuff like that but the first message was about this idea of a kind of redefining worship, and it's the idea that, um, that God's image.

Matt:

So we think of temples as a place of worship. Right, in the old Testament, things like that an ancient believer would have thought of the creation account actually as God's temple, instituting his temple, which is really unique. And when he instituted that temple, he actually put his image in that temple in the Garden of Eden, and that image was inscribed on humanity. Right, we're bearers of his image, right? So one of the primary ways that we can honor his image is how we care for one another, right, if his image is inscribed on humanity, how we care for humanity matters. It's actually an act of worship. It's why Jesus could say whatever you do to the least of these, you do unto me. It's because his image is inscribed on all of humanity. But also, as believers think of a temple, is where, in the Old Testament, the presence of God resided right In the Holy of Holies, and so there's a presence now.

Matt:

Stephen said in Acts the God, the creator of the universe, doesn't reside in temples made by human hands, but he resides in us, right, and the same thing with, like I mentioned, with Peter earlier. So it's this idea that honoring one another, all of the 59 commands to one another, are part of our act of worship. And I'm getting to what your question was ultimately, which is also okay. So how we do that is actually our biggest witness to the world. And this was the second sermon that I preached, which was, you know, around this idea from Jesus's statement of a new command I give to you, and the command is to love one another as I have loved you. This is how the world that you will know that you're my disciples, by how you love one another.

Matt:

So how we gather as a community is actually the proclamation to the world how we want another, how we live life together and how we build this unique, holy Spirit filled community is one of our biggest witnesses to the world. It's not as much about yes, we need to be able to share the good news, but it's not something just for a professional pastor to be able to do, just to leave it up to them, or a high-profile evangelist. It's something that really should be done on a family or a household or a neighborhood or a community. Scale based on how we actually live our lives together is such a powerful proclamation of the goodness of God in our lives.

Kevin:

Yeah, that's so good. And if you think about even being intimidated to invite people to church, if you're doing church, like Thanksgiving dinner we probably have all invited someone to Thanksgiving dinner at one point in our life. Right, it's easy to do, but because it's like, why wouldn't you want to go? We're going to share a meal. We all love each other. You know, yeah, are there going to be some arguments? Yeah, it's family, right, I mean, there's going to be the awkward people. Right, it's family, but still, you love it and you look forward to it and you know it.

Kevin:

Like, I think it's actually less intimidating than walking into a large building. And you, granted, there's, there's some anonymity that comes with walking into a large building where you can slip in, slip out, not even have to talk to anybody. Uh, but I think there's the ability to be a lot more effective. Now, here's the reality, right? Um, there's also, if you're talking about inviting people into your home, there's a little more sacrifice involved, right, because you don't necessarily get to pick, handpick. You know who's my church and there might be some people that you know they don't have your. And I'm speaking as a type A who, as a former Okinawan living person, I want shoes off in the house because they're the nastiest, dirtiest things in the world and a lot of Americans don't understand that yet. Like there's some inconvenience and stretching that has to happen. But that's kind of part of the sacrifice, right?

Matt:

That's part of the sacrifice, that's part of learning and growing and loving one another. That's that's why you know first Corinthians 13, love bears all things endures all things Like. That's part of learning. To grow up together as a family is, like you said, some of the inconveniences or the awkwardness of things. I do think, too, one of the reasons people get hesitant about an idea of like house, church and things like that is there's actually a different level of accountability that exists as well. It's very hard to slip through the cracks like you can in a large mega church type context where, like you said, you can slip in and out, um, and you might not. You might never meet the pastor of your church, right, right, um. But in, in a more intimate environment, there's some real advantages because there's accountability.

Kevin:

Yeah, yeah, no, that's great. So well, we have definitely I mean probably COVID revealed a lot of the shortfalls of the American church to me the way that so many churches responded or failed to respond to it.

Kevin:

And so I've just kind of been ruminating and once again, I love our church. I've seen so many great things come from it. But once again it's like is the way we do things, is it the best? And as someone who's always striving after improvement, like, oh, how can we be better, how can we disciple better? And in the theme of creating uncommon men over and over, you know America, we're individualistic to a fault and I'm speaking as in the ultimate maverick type personality, like I am an American, like to the core and in many ways to a fault.

Kevin:

But, you know, we, we send our kids to school to get educated, you know, at the Sunday school to get discipled, and it's like, wait a minute, we're supposed to do that, right yeah.

Matt:

Yeah, no, absolutely. And I, you know, just in along that theme of uncommon men, like I think it's actually something that we really need to think about as men, as fathers, as husbands, you know, taking responsibility for the growth and maturing and the discipleship of our families. Discipleship of our families. There's a reason why Paul made such a big deal about it in some of those household texts in the New Testament because it's supposed to be the foundation for how Christ's plan comes to be right. It's built on strong families. That's why, when he talks about elders and the qualifications for elders, they have to be able to manage their household well, right, that's it's so, so important. The mission of God is directly connected to how we, as men, lead our families and our wives and our children and and and our, our, our communities around us. It's it's so, so important. I mean we, we have to be willing to to make those ask those uncommon questions and make those uncommon choices in order to to make that happen.

Kevin:

Yeah, awesome, matt. Well, hey, we will. We may have to do another one, or at least we'll continue the conversation, because I'm loving it, um, but talk about.

Matt:

I could go on forever, but I understand you've got a time limit too.

Kevin:

You've got a podcast coming out. Why don't you just tell us about that real quick?

Matt:

Yeah, no, I appreciate you bringing that up it's so yeah, we're actually looking at, we're going to be starting to record. You know we're here in the end of August now and starting to record in September. Hopefully I have some episodes out there later in September. But the name of our podcast is going to be Guarding the Good Deposit and so it's this idea.

Matt:

In 2 Timothy 1, paul actually charged his protege, timothy, to guard the good deposit. That's what he charged him to do and it refers to the teachings and the traditions passed down from Christ through the apostles. So we're really going to be just spending a lot of time intentionally talking about that. What's that apostolic tradition that was passed down from Paul to Timothy? And then we really see it for the first 300 years of Christianity before it kind of gets institutionalized. So we're going to spend a lot of time talking about that. Initially, our first six or seven episodes are going to be just on the book of Acts and really trying to discern the book of Acts and hopefully having a good time having some conversation. I'm doing it with a ministry friend here in New Jersey. His name is Scott and I'm excited to see it come together. So Guarding the Good Deposit is the name of it, excellent.

Kevin:

And then you've got a sub stack. Tell us where to find that.

Matt:

Yeah, my sub stack is oh man, I get mixed up on what, the maybe, I don't know. If you have it in front of you, I've got it.

Kevin:

So it's substackcom, uh slash at matthew anderson, uh two t's and it's an e? R s e? N instead of the s? O?

Matt:

n for that and anderson with an e, yeah, anderson with an. I forget, I forget, you know, the facebook link and the the instagram link. I forget, but yeah, so so it's. You can look up Matthew Anderson there on Substack. And again, that's some of it is just me, literally, I'm just starting this as well, but just some reflections, some thoughts, some ideas, especially on how we can better live out our calling as followers of Jesus. So I'm excited to-.

Kevin:

And you're on pretty much all the major social platforms. I've got your links. I will put those in the show notes. So, if people want to learn more, if they want to geek out on this kind of stuff the way that I'm enjoying the conversation they can and learn other great things from you. But, matt, great to see you again. Learn other great things from you. But, matt, great to see you again. As always, I appreciate you.

Kevin:

You're definitely one of those you know uncommon men. That has had a profound impact on my life. I'm better for it. We've had some incredible times back in Okinawa just enjoying life doing. I mean we we did. We went to kind of a more Western church but we we still did church the old way. I mean we spent holidays together. That was what was one of the great things about Okinawa is we spent holidays and we, just we. We we live life together.

Matt:

It was incredible yeah Well, that was a unique thing about that situation too is there were so many of us that we were away from our biological families. Right, you were. You were stationed there in Okinawa. Your family was back in the States. So what do you do when Thanksgiving comes around? Oh well, we all get together as a church family, and it's a beautiful thing when you get a chance to do that, and there's lifelong relationships that were built in the midst of that.

Matt:

So good to connect in this way years later? Absolutely, it's awesome.

Kevin:

Well, brother, thanks for your time For those of you listening. I hope you enjoyed this little more unique version of the podcast. But thanks for making it through and if you have any questions, you know, reach out to me, reach out to Matt. You know, and, once again, you know, if you're pursuing your faith, feel free go to your. You know it's going to be easier to find a traditional local building type of church. You know it's going to be easier to find a traditional local building type of church. But dig into the Bible and figure out okay, what does God really want and which is? You know, ultimately, the goal is to build uncommon families, uncommon, you know, christians. Uncommon men you know that are going to raise uncommon kids. So, matt, have a great day, brother.

Matt:

Love it All right, see ya Appreciate it. Man, have a good one.