Uncommon Freedom

Creating a Culture of Life: Global Strategies and Local Actions

• Kevin Tinter

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In this eye-opening episode of the Uncommon Freedom Show, Kevin Tinter sits down with Josiah Friedman and Matt Merrill from Voices for the Voiceless to explore innovative approaches to creating a culture that truly values life.

Drawing from their recent experiences in Southeast Asia and their work in the United States, Josiah and Matt share:

  • How Western influences are shaping abortion policies in countries like the Philippines and Indonesia
  • Strategies for addressing root causes of abortion, including prenatal diagnosis presentation and corporate culture
  • The importance of supporting women to achieve both professional success and motherhood
  • How businesses and communities can create environments that genuinely support life at all stages

We discuss the challenges of cultural shifts, the importance of long-term thinking in the pro-life movement, and practical steps individuals and organizations can take to foster a culture of life.

Whether you're involved in the pro-life movement or simply interested in how cultural values shape our society, this episode offers valuable insights on creating positive change both locally and globally.


Find more about how you can support or get involved at: https://www.voicesforthevoiceless.org/


Listen to Josiah's TEDx talk here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8WNP6qp0TYE


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Speaker 1:

Hey friends, welcome to the Uncommon Freedom Show. Today we are taking a break from our normal setup and you're going to have three guys, definitely not as attractive as my wife, but today we're going to have a conversation about something that I am passionate about, but my wife Becca is also passionate about, and that is life. And so today I'm joined by two good friends, matt Merrill and Josiah Friedman. Guys, introduce yourselves, tell us what you do, tell us a little bit about your families as well, because we all have a wife and we all have kids.

Speaker 2:

Yes, yeah, so I'm the founder of Voices for the Voiceless, a pro-life innovation lab that's focused on addressing the root cause of abortion, so we launched a lot of different things, kevin, our work looks a lot of different ways, but my main job is that I'm dad to two. One is going to be born in two weeks, so we are gearing up for that.

Speaker 1:

Congrats.

Speaker 2:

And sleeping and preparing, yeah.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, and I'm married to my wife Aaliyah. We just celebrated 10 years in April. Congratulations, thank you very much. We have an eight-year-old Asher and a seven-year-old Judah, and so they are rambunctious boys that keep me busy. But here at Voices I'm our advancement director and I help manage our relationships at churches, our strategic planning and looking to the future.

Speaker 1:

Excellent, excellent, and your wife tell us a little bit about her. Can you do that?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, Andrea is a she's a firecracker. We've worked together for a long time, so we got to know each other when we were both like 15, really and fell in love working in a lot of different pro-life capacities, and she my wife is a visionary. So I think some of the most important work I've ever done is simply trying to create an environment where her vision could really be executed and thrive.

Speaker 1:

Excellent. What is her role with Voices for the Voiceless?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so she runs one of the movements that we've gotten behind that's really focused on supporting women who feel like abortion's their only choice, with resources and support. Most of what we do at Voices for the Voices is focused on building new things. We think the life movement has operated according to the same models in most cases for about the last 40 years and there's a need for innovation and new thinking, and she's really one of the leading thinkers in the country on how to support the modern woman who's facing unexpected pregnancy today.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, that's awesome and I love the fact that what you're really focused on is, you know, supporting the women. Cause I go back to, you know, growing up in the eighties. The pro-life movement back then, I think, came across many ways very hostile towards women and that is not, I don't think that's the way that Jesus would have approached it. You know, I believe that a baby is a new creation at conception. I think the science is pretty clear on that. If it's not a human baby, then what is it?

Speaker 1:

And I know that there's people will, you know, have different levels of comfort with. Well, you know, we need to protect the baby from conception. Six weeks, 15 weeks, you know whatever, Um and different, you know, different, unique scenarios uh, rape and incest, probably the two most common and, of course, the life of the mother, which I don't think there's any mainstream person or organization that's saying no, if a mom's life is in danger, that she needs to just carry out the baby. The reality is, you can do with modern science, we can deliver that baby, put them in a neonatal, a NICU unit, and save the life of the mother most likely, and also most likely save the life of the child. Is that correct?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, it is. And I think the, when it comes to this issue, people have tried to understand what abortion is for a long time and I think a lot of people have made different attempts. But I think, if you look at scripture and what God would say about the abortion issue, chiefly it's about broken relationship. Abortion is a failure of community and it's the separation of the interests of mother and child is really what it is. So you think of how abortion is sold in the modern day. It's sold by a society telling women you have a choice. You can have a future or your child can have a future, just not both you pick. It's a terrible choice.

Speaker 2:

The pro-choice position, in my mind, has become fundamentally just a defeatist position, a recognition that well, I guess we concede the best world we can imagine is a world where mothers and children cannot thrive together.

Speaker 2:

And the pro-life position whether you call it pro-life or something else, it might need a new brand, to be honest is not only a belief that every human life has value and we can't take the life of the weakest among us. It's important to protect them. It's also the belief that that vision isn't good enough. The vision we need is a world where motherhood can be a path of success, no matter how someone's journey begins, and so part of the work of our organization and our big vision is we want to reframe what exactly we are about as a people that's looking to protect life and to help women navigate these situations, because what we're trying to do isn't just reduce the number of abortions or end abortion. Together, we're trying to reunify the interests of mothers and children, and that means men too, which is why we're around this, this table as we try to lead our families, and we were talking about this before we started recording that.

Speaker 1:

You know, some people are going to look at this.

Speaker 1:

Oh, three guys sitting around the table talking about abortion.

Speaker 1:

You know, like you're trying to tell women what to do, and actually what we all discussed is that actually, no, behind every women contemplating abortion, there's a man who played at least 50% of of, you know, of the of of the women having to make that decision. And if, if men are the cause of the problem, then they're also at least part of the solution. Uh, you know, I tell people all the time that literally we could wipe out the need for abortion in nine months. If, on what you know on today, if we just had a radical shift and the values and the behavior of men in America, then rape wouldn't happen, incest wouldn't happen and every man who slept with a woman would decide, you know what, if she gets pregnant, I'm going to step up and I'm going to be the father and I'm going to support her. And so it's simplistic, because obviously we know that, for, you know, 10,000 years humans have been sinning and making mistakes, and but the flip side is it's actually a very simple solution, right?

Speaker 2:

You know people come from a lot of different political backgrounds on this issue. Right, you know people come from a lot of different, uh, political backgrounds on this issue and we talk with people who are very firmly entrenched in just the feminist camp.

Speaker 2:

I think on this issue, many of whom resonate with our work, and we acknowledge that. Look, there are a lot of reasons why people feel like abortion is their only choice, but prevailingly the number one reason. When we're sitting across from someone and having a conversation about her future and her goals and this child and how they could all work together, the number one problem is that she doesn't know that she has her support, that her partner's support, or he wants her to get an abortion Prevailingly, most commonly the number one issue. So, in that way, you're right and, matt, you've spoken to this as well in some really good ways.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, and I think when we don't talk about men right now, the my body, really good ways. Yeah, and I think when we don't talk about men, um, right now, that my body, my choice argument, it all creates a man to be able to say is whatever you decide, I'll support you. And what we have found is we've talked with women about their, their experiences. What they felt is this decision you just placed wholly on my shoulders and you're too cowardly.

Speaker 3:

It's not really. You want an abortion, but you're not not being direct with it. And so, when men aren't involved, what we're not encouraging men to do is to take responsibility and to be servant leaders. Nobody at ProChoice or ProLife is really advocating for men to be masculine, present voices with their partners. And that doesn't just mean, hey, get the abortion, I'll support you. It means hey, you bring assurance to the relationship, like I'm looking forward to growing with you as we navigate this together. No matter what you may be feeling right now whether you're scared, you're afraid or whatever it may be I'm with you right now. So that voice of reassurance is what that woman likely needs. But nobody's training men to be there as a present voice and therefore we don't know how to support our friends who are in that situation. They build a positive pressure towards how they support that woman.

Speaker 3:

Oftentimes I've talked to people who've had abortions and that man basically said what we already said you have an abortion, or sorry, my body, my choice, and whatever you decide, I'll be with you. Like he didn't want the abortion, but he wasn't clear with that. And she didn't want the abortion, but she felt like he did. And so we don't foster communication. We don't believe men have a right to be able to talk about this with their partner and therefore women are making abortion decisions because they feel that the partner wants it when they actually don't want it at all. So one of the biggest things we can do is just encourage men to be supportive voices and to state their stance, that they are for their partner, they're for that relationship and they're for that raising that child together. That's good.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

So when we talk about you know, like me growing up in the 80s I'm you know, and I'm older than both of you by a few years, by a few years In the 80s the kind of the stereotype, certainly in I would say, kind of church circles, was that a good mom stayed at home didn't work, and I mean that, like that was just kind of the stereotype, like if you were a mom dropping your kid off at daycare, like it was like, oh, kind of you know the stay-at-home moms frowned upon, uh, those mothers, and it kind of put women into a spot.

Speaker 1:

It was either or, and my wife likes to use this phrase that she got from one of her friends it's both and, and what I love about all of our wives is that they operate in the both and, and I think this is what Voices for the Voiceless does, and it's what you're passionate about is helping women realize this isn't an either or. I mean you have a dynamic wife who's, you know, having, you know she's a visionary, she's an unbelievable leader, and she's pregnant, she's getting ready to have her second child, and so she's operating in the both end. You know my wife same thing. She's built a huge business. She's a phenomenal speaker, she's a great leader, thousands of people look up to her, and yet she's also an unbelievable mom, and she's operating in that both end, and so I think that's one of the key pivots to make is that, if you're faced with this challenging situation, you can get through it, and there is a both-and option for you, not an either-or.

Speaker 2:

I think one of the things that's so important about that, and one of the key values that we've brought to bear in our work, is the idea that motherhood can look all kinds of ways. There are a lot of different ways to be a good mother, and one of the reasons I think for that is in not just conservative circles. It's kind of the opinion of a previous generation was that motherhood should look a very specific way.

Speaker 2:

That has changed, but it's changed in ways. It's changed in a culture that really uses abortion as the way to make it change. So when the Dobbs decision the Supreme Court decision that overturned Roe was argued, one of the justices asked by what right are you asking? Are you saying that there's a right to an abortion? He was asking the pro-abortion attorney this question. The pro-abortion attorney said you know, it's not autonomy and it's not privacy the two legal rights before it's liberty. And the pro-abortion attorney went to make the argument that in the world that we live in, there was simply no way that society could be equal and just for women if they didn't have the opportunity to have an abortion. In other words, abortion was a prerequisite for that kind of equality.

Speaker 2:

The issue now is that the world that we have to create is a world where that kind of equality actually exists, but without abortion. It's a better world to create altogether. Everybody should be able to get behind this vision that no one should have to choose between the future that they see for themselves and their child. Now, of course, there are concessions, right? Yeah, I've known this, and when you know I'm a man, but when I became a parent, everything in my life changed dramatically. And things do change dramatically, but you can still have you know dreams and a trajectory to your life and be a parent. Have you know dreams and a trajectory to your life and be a parent. And if we're able to create a world where you can thrive being a mother and working and having a business and doing these things, in some senses we have to prove to the world that that is possible. Now it is possible. So a lot of the things that we've done.

Speaker 2:

One of my favorite articles that got sort of viral run on the internet that we worked on was the story of a mother who had bought a house in California as like a 26-year-old financial analyst who had an unexpected pregnancy very early on, and it got a lot of run because it just challenged so much of people's opinion Because, again, that pro-choice belief is a very limiting belief, saying if there's only one way to be a good mother, you certainly can't be that and pursue the different things that you want in your life, and so it's nontraditional to advocate for this kind of thing. But I think people, especially people who are pro-life, need to understand that's the world that we're actually kind of fighting for is where that story is heard all around the world. It becomes the norm and it inspires a lot of people who have great dreams and vision for their life, who fear that this child is the end of that road, to actually question that doubt, to doubt their doubt and to go actually.

Speaker 2:

It might be something else, given the stories of these thousands of people who have a different way of going about it and living their life it's an uncommon way to live your life right for now.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, that's good. So, um, we, you guys just returned from a whirlwind trip over to southeast asia, right, the philippines and indonesia, correct? Okay, so talk about what you were doing there and kind of what the landscape of life and death looks like outside of the United States.

Speaker 2:

So the reason why we were there is, as an organization, we're trying to address the root causes of abortion, meaning those triggers that cause a lot of people to feel like abortion is their only choice. And as an organization, we call it. If you're familiar with the book, blue Ocean Strategy, we're constantly looking for blue ocean.

Speaker 2:

So we're not trying to redo a model that someone else has already done or compete in a space where there's someone else doing something. We've realized this is a really important time in the life space to be doing that, because there's so much that needs to get done and there are many urgent problems that pro-abortion advocates have taken advantage of and that pro-life advocates don't even know what's going on. So one of the most significant developments has been the effort to colonize abortion, in essence around the world, the United States being the greatest defender of this, with the Gates Foundation and others using US aid and different aid funding programs to try to require that different countries around the world legalize abortion in order to get access to the help that they need and the basic services. In the two countries we went, abortion is not legal In Indonesia. It's legal through 14 weeks, but only in the case of rape In the Philippines.

Speaker 2:

Philippines has a constitutional provision that protects life from conception, which is very unique, but in both countries, and especially the Philippines, the organizations that are trying to spread abortion all around the world and therefore create cultures and societies that become dependent on abortion to thrive.

Speaker 2:

Those organizations are already operating in those places, public opinion among their young people is already shifting and while most people in those countries feel like the law will never change, we remind them what happened in Ireland just a few years ago, which Ireland was a Catholic country through and through, where two-thirds of its population was strongly pro-life.

Speaker 2:

The same thing happened. The same people came in and they created a blueprint and five years later Ireland, with a two-thirds majority and 85% of its young people, legalized abortion, and it'll be very hard to overturn the different things involved with that. Now we're not a political organization, but one of the things we realize is that all of the cultural things we don't like, that abortion causes, that feeling that women have to choose between their job and their child, and so many other things that abortion does in our society. They happened after Roe, after Roe was handed down, and so many other things that abortion does in our society. They happened after Roe, after Roe was handed down, and it almost gave our society permission to be completely dependent on abortion as a false solution to any of its problems.

Speaker 1:

Basically birth control.

Speaker 2:

Exactly, yeah, yeah, and now. So these countries are extremely vulnerable to this happening. The same people are going there and we're creating a strategy to do what we can to support efforts in those countries to actually fortify their churches so they're able to communicate the pro-life position winsomely, and to create strategies to reach the next generation that's already being reached by different forces that want to force abortion beyond the West into these countries.

Speaker 3:

You know and there is a thought of a leadership generation that we're a pro-life nation. We'll always be pro-life. So we had one meeting with a national leader and he was telling us we'll always be pro-life, this isn't something we have to be concerned about, and immediately we're so always be pro-life. This isn't something we have to be concerned about, and immediately we're ushered downstairs into the Senate hearing where a woman was advocating from the Senate floor hey, we need to pass national comprehensive sex education. And the language she used was the same language that I've been experienced with. I've sat on a sex education review board for a school district. It was the same language of Planned Parenthood in that nation.

Speaker 3:

We realized that the ideas being presented weren't native to the Filipino culture. It was exported from the United States or from Western influence, and so what we're doing is we're helping people to wake up to say look, there are people who have a plan for your culture and your nation that doesn't match your cultural values and that, while your values today are one thing, that young people are being persuaded into another way of thinking, and it's your responsibility as parents, as families, as institutions to secure those values and to explain why these are your values. Don't take them for granted. When we take things for granted, we become overly familiar, like those in Ireland. I think it's possible that there is a light pro-life view and ethic that wasn't deep enough when it was challenged. We want to make sure that there is a depth to the pro-life position that penetrates so in the day and it's coming when it's challenged that the Filipinos can rise to that challenge.

Speaker 1:

So we are talking about the fact that America has exported obesity to the rest of the world through our processed food. I was just listening to a Tucker Carlson podcast yesterday and today with some medical professionals just talking about our polluted food sources and, you know, through processed food, fast food, you know we are exporting obesity everywhere in the world and we're now kind of the exporter of a culture of death, really, and kind of the maybe naivete of the leaders in other countries to think that, you know, we'll always be pro-life. There's a saying I can't remember who's responsible for it, but that things happen gradually, then suddenly, and you talk about, like Ireland, right, it was gradual and then it was very sudden. And really, when you look at some of the institutions that are have pushed, you know abortion on demand essentially like this was a multi-decade play, it just it didn't happen overnight.

Speaker 1:

Like the amount of strategy and patience it took to get to where we're at now is actually it's, it's. It's admirable because, like, if, if, if the rest of us put that much strategy and patience and consistency to all the other positive goals that we have in our life, we'd be wildly successful. How do you see impacting these other countries, like what is in place to potentially keep them from going down the road, the slippery slope that the US is on. Or like what are some of the things that you, that you were trying to accomplish while you were overseas?

Speaker 2:

I think there are a few really significant opportunities Now. Some of these countries, especially the Philippines, is a really highly Christian country. I think it's like 85% Catholic. In the end, one of the really great voices to the culture comes from the church. In the United States we talk about the importance of the church communicating something, but it doesn't have near the same influence that it would have there, and so we're contemplating and working with different church leaders to go. How can we actually bring in or welcome in a training on the ethic of life?

Speaker 2:

so that people can deepen and have deep rootedness to why they believe what they believe when it's challenged, and so that different things can happen that are really critical. Kevin, I'll tell you this, it's not as if either country doesn't have abortions today. They do. They just come by a different way. They go through secret routes. There are witch doctors and different things like that Meaning. In those churches, too, there are people that need healing, and because those are countries where this topic is a little more taboo, at least for today, that healing is often never. There's no real path to get it. So you know, that's one of the most critical. God can have a deep rootedness when it's challenged, so that they can stick with it. So that's one of the leading things that we're doing. We're also just building a coalition of different leaders in the country to have a conversation on what can be done to increase pregnancy support and different strategic efforts to shape the next generation, Because I think, as we look at these cultures, these are cultures that profoundly value family like we don't in the United.

Speaker 2:

States we could hardly relate to or even aspire to, and it's a really beautiful thing.

Speaker 2:

So in the Philippines I sat down with about 40 different college students and young professionals to ask them what they thought about the issue of abortion and to just really be curious. Where were the reviews coming from? How were they developed? About 70% of them were strongly pro-choice, but many of them affirmed a very close connection to their family. They may not share the views of their family, but their family is very important and I think in a culture like that you have certain opportunities that you don't have here, because in some ways we've lost that here, and the ability to have kind of a communal reawakening or a deep rootedness on an issue is there that isn't here. We have to be super individualistic in the way we go about it. So I would say those are the emphases what we can do in the church, what we can do to shape the minds of the next generation and how we can create an on-ramp for healing for those who deal with it today, as well as more support.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, and I think creating from the beginning the narrative of the double win, that the win for a mom and child, and so we can look back from some of our mistakes in the life movement in the US, like in the 80s when you saw that it was pro baby but not pro mom we can have that narrative from the beginning and training leaders not just why abortion is wrong but why family matters, why why motherhood matters and casting a better view and vision of human flourishing is that's what we think abortion erodes, is human flourishing.

Speaker 3:

That's what we think abortion erodes, is human flourishing. We don't believe that it answers life's deepest questions about significance and purpose. We believe that churches can cast that holistic vision and also help redefine what success is. I think for those who are Christian, their view of success can't just be Western materialism. Success can't just be Western materialism. And so they can strengthen the family values but also Christian values of self-sacrifice, of being a good Samaritan.

Speaker 3:

So if you do find someone who's in this situation, your first instinct is love and compassion and to come alongside.

Speaker 3:

We believe a lot of that is in the culture, but when it's taboo that the people who are creating these conversations are people we don't believe have the best interest of mothers and children. So we're helping to proactively talk about these things for the love of God and for the service of the families that are involved in these churches. And the churches aren't just congregations, they touch every sector of society. Congregations they touch every sector of society. So, when people are equipped with the life ethic, if you're a business leader and the women in your business feel like they have to choose between their future or their child's future, there might be some invisible things that business leaders are doing or not doing that may support or inhibit that woman's decision for life, if she has it. And so we don't believe that it's just an intellectual belief about life. We believe that this has real-world consequences in the way that we run our lives, not just on Sundays, but Monday through Saturday. We hope that cultural leaders, people of influence, leverage their influence to help the mothers in their lives, or potential mothers.

Speaker 1:

That's good. How do you see us making the shift here in the United States? I mean, obviously there's there's really a big divide, but even there's just so many different opinions among church leaders, and even you know people who claim to be christians. As far as abortion, um, how do we become more um life sustaining, like once abortion is isn't the solution, right, it's really a symptom. So how do we become more life sustaining in America?

Speaker 3:

Well, you said something already, Kevin, that we, that that people who are pro-abortion and those who are leading the charge are thinking decades down the road.

Speaker 3:

So oftentimes when we think about pro-life, it's always this election cycle and it's very near term. The thing that doesn't happen when you're thinking near term is new ideas and new solutions that can change the world 10 and 20 years from now. So getting business minds and getting people who aren't just led by the urgency of the moment and looking at the future that's a part of it is getting some of those leaders in the life movement together to consider the long-term good we're at this head, and that's typically not the conversation. As far as the public narrative of the life movement, it tends to be very reactive and very this election cycle Now, rather than thinking four, five, six election cycles in the future. What are people going to be facing? What are they going to be thinking? How do we reach the demand for abortion and the feeling that abortion is my only option? I think the only way we get there is by thinking long term about it.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and you asked what can be done. How do we actually create this culture? I think it starts with we have to identify what the root causes of abortion are, and then we have to create strategies high ROI business strategies to address those things. So I'll give you a few examples of the problems that need to be addressed. One of the leading causes of abortion in 10 or 20 years it's not a leading cause today, but it will be in 10 or 20 years is the way prenatal diagnoses are presented to patients.

Speaker 2:

Prenatal diagnosis is a technology. It will be able to detect more and more things that are imperfect about an individual prenatally and as that number of things expands, what we have right now is a huge gap in physician education. Currently, there is no physician education on how to present a prenatal diagnosis, and it means that so many families including families listening to this have been told at one time or another it looks like your child is going to have this condition. Here's how many days you have left to decide by which the physician meant to have an abortion and put a rush and a timer on the situation. That's why 67% of pregnancies with Down syndrome are aborted and why 84% of pregnancies with spina bifida are aborted because of the way those diagnoses are presented. The only way to address that is you have to change that presentation. So one of the things that we are considering doing and we've made a lot of progress in this we have a strategy around the country to try to shape the way those diagnoses are presented by training the next generation of physicians to present it differently. So that's one example.

Speaker 2:

Another example would be when it comes to businesses. You might have realized that after Roe is overturned, about 200 of the biggest corporations in the United States said, even if they didn't have any policy to provide for someone's maternity leave, that they would fund their out-of-state abortion. And the reason they did that is it's a lot cheaper for them to fund an out-of-state abortion than it is to pay for someone's maternity leave. But that kind of corporate culture it's what we have in the United States. It's completely dependent on abortion and it's why so many women feel like that double win is completely unachievable for them, or why they're making a choice between stay at home, mom or business executive that has to have as many abortions as it takes to move up the ladder. That's not an acceptable thing and the only way it can change is by raising up the next generation of business leaders who will think about it differently, who will provide flexible benefits to people and who will create a culture that shuts down gossip when someone's pregnant. It's very important for that to take place as well.

Speaker 2:

Now there's a list of other things.

Speaker 2:

We have a sort of a map with a bunch of different strategies and things that need to be done for the long term, but really, I think the only way we're going to change public opinion in the long term this isn't just a game where we've got to get more people to agree with us than agree with them.

Speaker 2:

The truth is, there are way too many people in our culture today who feel like abortion's their only choice, because they're victims to a culture that's been dependent on abortion for a long time, and the only way to solve that is to uproot those institutions and systematic reasons why people are facing that and to make motherhood a path of success for people. That's going to be uncomfortable for a lot of policymakers, business owners, et cetera. They're all going to have to make sacrifices and do things a more difficult way than they do it now, but that's kind of part of what it means to have children, and abortion is a failure of community, because the only way to really have a community that values children is if we all do that. Children require slowing down, they require sacrifice, but they're our most precious resource, so it's worth it. We just don't have a society that functions that way right now.

Speaker 1:

So if you're a business owner or you're an employer of any type, you could be a church right, a large church with the big staff of which many are females, and you say you're pro-life. Yet when you find out that one of your employees is pregnant and your first thought is, oh crap, we're going to lose all this productivity. Thought is oh crap, we're going to lose all this productivity. Yeah, like this is where you actually get to put your money where your mouth is right.

Speaker 1:

Agree. You say, hey, how can we support you? We're here and obviously you know everything. There's always people that will abuse you, know every possible policy and things like that, but those are the exceptions, yeah, and so the reality is as a business owner, as an employer, how can you gather around and create that life affirming community for women who are pregnant?

Speaker 2:

Yes, and we can provide you a blueprint for how to do that. But, honestly, it's more of a gut check thing. Yeah, it's more most people are familiar with. Your family is more important than your job right, and that being generally good advice to follow, right, but do you believe that the families of the people who work for you are also more important than your company or organization? If you do, it's going to take sacrifice, but you can be to be honest. For companies that do this right now, they are a shining beacon. They are a place women want to work, who want to have a long, fruitful career for themselves, because they realize that this company isn't asking me to sacrifice all of the dreams I have for my family that are very, very real and present.

Speaker 2:

It can work in the best interest of companies that are willing to see it that way. But that takes sacrifice, I think, in the culture that we have right now.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, that's good. That's good. So how can people learn more about Voices for the Voiceless? If there's someone listening who has either had an abortion you know I mean obviously I think the statistics about one in three people has been affected by abortion. So it's either you know a man who's you know talked or coerced his wife or girlfriend into having an abortion, or it's a woman who's had one. What resources do you recommend for people that want to find healing from that?

Speaker 2:

Yeah Well, go to VoicesForTheVoicelessorg and you can connect with us there. If this is your story, let me say this I haven't been through an abortion personally, but my whole story was changed up by one. So when I was 16, I started Voices for the Voiceless. I had just met Jesus. I was a sort of a rabble-rousing political activist and for three years led this sort of growing movement.

Speaker 2:

And then my mom sat me down on the couch and said hey, I've got to tell you something that no one knows, but I just need you to know. And she told me about when she was 19,. She was pregnant. She was in this relationship she hoped would last, and she knew only one thing, and that was that if her dad found out about it and if the community found out about it, her relationship would be over and her family's reputation would be tarnished completely. And so she went to Planned Parenthood and they said you can go to this hospital and get an abortion discreetly and no one will have to know.

Speaker 2:

And so she did, and she hoped it was over, kevin. And two days later she started bleeding everywhere. She had to be rushed back to the hospital. Her worried parents came and visited her and she managed to conceal it and then, a week later, an insurance bill came in the mail describing her condition, mailed to her dad. She found it in the mail. My 19 year old mother marched back to the hospital and talked to a medical review board about why no one was allowed to find out about this and why they needed to change the bill.

Speaker 2:

so they did they sent her home with a bill that said bleeding from an irregular period. Change the bill. So they did. They sent her home with a bill that said bleeding from an irregular period and my mom's life kind of fell apart after that. Eventually she met Jesus and there was this redemption story and 30 years later I was pressing against this wound that I had no idea existed and it forever changed the way I think about this issue, not from just justice, which was my only lens to view it, but from the lens of separation and a failure of community.

Speaker 2:

There are people like my mom who felt like abortion was their only choice and that needed to be addressed, but also to realize I've been approached by a fair number of people who've walked up to me since then and have gone hey, I heard your story.

Speaker 2:

It sounds like your mom found quite a bit of healing by confessing that to you, and it's true. And so I think part of my ministry is really being able to help people whose kids don't know that they're missing a sibling or a member of their family to realize that it is worth it to tell them that. It is healing to tell them that and it's part of their children's identity, whether they know it or not, and it became a great activator in my life, a way that shaped how I viewed so many things and how people got healed. And so, kevin, I'd say the main thing is people are welcome to reach out to me too, and I've connected people with my mom or even just with me to talk about the importance of sharing that information with your kids, because I think it is important.

Speaker 3:

I think that Josiah had a TED Talk where he shared this and his mom was the front row, but there have been thousands of people who've been ministered to because of her story.

Speaker 3:

So I think, for people who are listening, where they've had an abortion or they've encouraged one, when we reconcile that experience with God, I think that we may not anticipate how God might use that healing in other people's lives. When it's something we want to stuff and then we bring shame and guilt, mold grows in the dark. But when we can confess that find healing in Jesus, which is totally available, he doesn't stop there. He uses it to redeem other people's stories, even if it's just behind the scenes, one-on-one, and so people who are listening, I think, need to find someone. Ideally, that's church community, ideally as well. I know we're working on training churches on how to talk about this with sensitivity, tact and how to create a culture that is life-affirming and life-affirming for those who've had abortions to come out of the darkness into the light as well.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, because the last thing we want to do is make people feel condemned yeah the devil already does that, enough, um, and the guilt that most people feel after having an abortion is going to do that. So we want to just provide a healing, safe space for them and their stories.

Speaker 3:

I mean, god uses those stories because somebody who's found healing is someone who has had to wrestle head on with the pain yeah, it wasn't just a pregnancy loss, it was a loss of a person, and so you can go to a secular counselor and they can address, hey, what the loss of the pregnancy might have affected you maybe the circumstances around but as pro-life people, we have the only solution, which is this is a loss of a life, and some of the impact you're feeling is that there's a person that's no longer with you.

Speaker 3:

And so we can help that person navigate that, find forgiveness in Jesus which it is a forgiveness issue, but then also to grieve that person and to be able to celebrate that life. And so churches ideally are set up to point towards a path of healing, which is forgiveness and it's grieving, and it then leads to a place of transparency. I remember asking a woman what was it like before and after you found healing from abortion? And she immediately said, matt, I was able to minister out of my brokenness before, but now I'm able to minister out of my healing. Those stories, I think, are common. When people find healing, it doesn't just affect one area of life.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, that's so good, awesome. Well, hey guys, and to those of you watching and listening, beck and I we support Voices for the Voiceless. We're grateful for the work that you guys do. We believe in it. We just love the fact that you take that blue ocean strategy because you know pregnancy resource centers they serve a huge value and purpose, but the landscape is changing and the reality is, especially with the abortion pill I think last year was, I think 63% in 2023 of abortions happened basically through the mail is how the abortion was ordered and then the woman delivered her baby, you know, typically under the toilet, in her bathroom, and so that's totally different than it used to be, once again in the 80s, 90s and even, just you know, probably not even 10 years ago, probably five years ago. So we love what you guys are doing and you know my wife Becca is just you know she loves Andrea and is just passionate really about helping women realize that they can live in that both and I love the Proverbs 31 woman.

Speaker 1:

I feel like I'm married to one. I think we all probably feel like we're married to one. None of our wives are at home barefoot and pregnant, which was kind of the stereotype of the good Christian mother back in the 80s when I was growing up that's not the Proverbs 31 woman. She was industrious, she was taking care of her family. She was industrious, she was, she was taking care of her family. She was, you know, supporting her husband. She was, she was making things. She was, you know, involved in the economy of the household and she lived in the both end. And that's really what you guys are all about.

Speaker 1:

So I will link your TED Talk in the show notes so people can find that. I totally forgot about that, but I have watched that and it's very powerful. So thank you for sharing that story. Guys, thanks for being here. I appreciate you taking time out of your busy schedules and I know we'd love to have Andrea on as well at some point, just so we can hear that woman's perspective and Becca will join me for that one as well. But, guys, keep up the good work.

Speaker 3:

Thanks. Thank you, Kevin.

Speaker 1:

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